One thing that a lot of people say about nullsec warfare is that it is just composed of fleets of battleships with people pressing F1 – F8 to activate their guns. Whoever brings the most ships wins. Something that I have learnt over the last couple of weeks is that this just isn’t true. There is far more to fleet engagements than that and yesterday we had a fight that showed it in fine style.
Since we reclaimed sovereignty in SV5-8N, CVA have announced that they are expanding their Operation Deliverance to include the systems in the UX3-N2 constellation. Holding HED-GP and SV5-8N is of strategic importance to us and with these two systems we effectively control the constellation and cut off their access to WD-VTV and 9KOE-A. CVA and friends recognise this and have launched another assault on SV5-8N. They had successfully anchored their sovereignty blockade units and put our infrastructure hub into reinforced.
We formed up in GE-8JV and prepared to titan bridge into SV5-8N to defend our claim. We formed up in a POS without incident and I even managed to snag a kill on a cheeky bomber that decloaked 100km from the station. (Damn that Megathron sneaking onto my mail.) When everything was ready we warped to the infrastructure hub and began to engage a CVA fleet with approximately equal numbers. We were able to destroy 97 of their ships for just 26 losses of our own. Our killboard doesn’t include Ushra’Khan’s losses and I can’t find a battle report there just yet. I know I’ve ignored some of our losses, more about that later.
So how did we inflict such huge damage in what was an approximately evenly matched fight. The answer is simply that our fleet composition was better. In order to explain I need to talk about the idea of fleet composition. A large fleet in most cases consists of a main force made up of long-range battleships. These are the ships-of-the line in Eve and they can switch between long range or close range ammunition. They are designed to focus fire and blast through targets in just a couple of volleys. In order to do this the enemy fleet needs to be kept of the field and so the next most important part of the fleet is the tackle which is made up of interdictors (light and heavy) and to a slightly lesser extent interceptors. Using bubbles and warp disruptors these ships lock down the enemy’s battleships and keep them on the field.
Sticking with our naval analogy, a battleship fleet will usually align to a celestial once it lands on the field. Ideally this will be a safe POS but it might be just a planet or even the sun. If a ship starts to take damage it will try to warp out to this celestial and then return to the field. Upon its return it will broadcast for the logistics ships to repair any damage and bring it back to full fighting strength. Unlike a regular remote repair fleet this needs to be done because once a ship is called as the primary target it often only has a few seconds before it is destroyed.
So now we have a fleet with battleships forming the main line of battle, interdictors holding the enemy in place, and logistics repairing any wounded ships. What else is there? Well, we need a way to get our opponent’s tackle ships away from our fleet and this is where the support arm of our fleet comes into play. Support is usually split into light and heavy varieties with light support being interceptors and other frigates and heavy support battlecruisers and HACs. The support fleet’s job is primarily to remove any enemy tackle from our fleet and then to protect our own tackle by engaging the enemy’s support. If the enemy tries to flee the field interceptors will often be used to tackle battleships so they cannot warp out and also to provide warp ins for our own interdictors.
And that’s not all. On top of this there is also a squad of scouts who are providing intelligence on enemy movements and reinforcements. They provide warp in points for the main fleet so that they can engage the enemy at their preferred range and a whole variety of other duties on top of this.
As you can see there’s a lot going on within the context of a battle. Under the direction of its fleet commander the main line of battleships is trying to apply its damage to the enemy fleet as effectively as possible while all around it a battle for space superiority is waged between the support fleets. In close engagements it can be the outcome of this support battle that determines the overall result and for me it is the most exciting part of the battlefield.
On top of all this there is the possibility of auxiliary wings such as a bomber squad that can harass the enemy fleet. In SV5-8N the goons brought in a fleet of about a dozen stealth bombers. In a single bombing run they were able to destroy 30 of our battleships as we cleaned up the field. That’s more than we lost in the entire engagement with CVA. Used well these auxiliary skirmish elements can turn the tide of a battle and I have to admit that the Goons are very good with them.
In Dominion the fun is added to by the fact that there are a range of strategic objectives around the system and the battle can move from gate to gate as the two fleets fight for superiority. You can then get multiple allied fleets on the field and then communication and teamwork comes into it. I hope you can see now that this is far more than just pressing F1 – F8 and I haven’t even touched on capital ship engagements.
So if we look at the SV5-8N fight again, how did we win it? Tidying up the numbers a bit we had 110 ships on the field and CVA had about 95 and a dozen Goon bombers. However CVA’s fleet was composed of just 31 battleships and an enormous 44 battlecruisers while we had a much heavier fleet with 70 battleships providing a huge amount of firepower. Looking at the lossmails for our side you can see that the CVA fleet was firing almost randomly with both battleships and battlecruisers firing upon our support and heavy fleet. Our own fire was much more focussed with our battleship wing focussing on their opposite numbers while our support took their tackle off the field. Because of this superior discipline we held the field, held the enemy down, and were able to bring all of our damage to bear.
A final thing worth bearing in mind as a difference between the two fleets is that we expect our pilots to bring a fully T2-fit ship to the field. We need our fleet to be operating at maximum efficiency. Browsing through some of CVA’s losses shows that while the majority of their battleships were T2 fit a lot of their support fleet wasn’t and that limits their effectiveness.
I hope I’ve been able to convince you that huge fleets aren’t boring, monotonous, and predictable affairs. There are plenty of roles in the fleet that will challenge you and keep you on your toes. Of course, we need people flying the big guns but if you haven’t done it I recommend getting into an interceptor, interdictor, or bomber and have a look at the battlefield in a whole new light.
Related posts:
- Into The Meat Grinder
- Not In My Back Yard
- Anticlimax in D-GTMI
- An Awesome, Synchronised Killing Machine
January 20th, 2010 at 11:47 am
Weapon grouping. You'll love it. It's a way of life!
January 20th, 2010 at 12:00 pm
Not in high lag situations, mate. Unstacked and auto-repeat off is the only way to go unless you want to spend the whole of the fight with your guns trying to cycle on the first primary.
January 20th, 2010 at 12:10 pm
That's a nice roundup of the specialized roles in fleet combat. However, one should be careful when fighting strawmen, for they occassionally pack a mean punch. Like in this case, where the majority of your fleet (70 out of 110) was doing exactly what the naysayers said they would.
January 20th, 2010 at 1:28 pm
http://www.ushrakhan.com/alliance/edk/?a=kill_rel...
From the U'K perspective we only lost a battleship or two in the fleet fight with CVA, the majority of our losses were caused by those damn goonswarm stealth bombers as we landed on the final SBU. I was on my battleship alt and warped straight into the bombs and was dead before I could do anything
Really fun fight, no lag on my side with brackets turned off. Popped my BS alts killmail cherry with 15 BS killmails in one engagement. Now I have to go make some isk to help replace my loss so I can make sure i'm there next time
January 20th, 2010 at 3:46 pm
Really enjoyed your post, some good information taken away.
January 20th, 2010 at 4:59 pm
I thought they introduced wep grouping to HELP the lag problem. Oh well, nice going CCP….
January 20th, 2010 at 5:06 pm
What CCP intend to do and what they end up doing rarely seem to be related. But yes, exactly the same discussion was had in corp the other night.
January 20th, 2010 at 5:15 pm
I am tired of lurking, so I thought I should say hello and that I really enjoy your posts. Your blog and Sage's help to keep me interested in this game. This post is no different in that respect – it's just a slight downer in hearing that I still need need a character with tens of millions of skill points to be of use (or so it seems) in a big fleet.
I still have plenty to learn for myself about this game though, so I have things to keep me busy until I can fit that Typhoon full T2
….sounds like flying a HAC in fleet could be a lot of fun.
I am looking forward to your future war reports.
January 20th, 2010 at 6:08 pm
Great post per usual Wensley. You describe the sys-k way of fighting as well, even better than I thought I could had I come up with the thought. It is some of the most tense, challenging and fun activities one can engage in, TBH I look forward to the the large fleet engagements more and more.
January 20th, 2010 at 6:34 pm
Don't worry too much about skill points. DKOD has a 20,000,000 SP limit and that's not unusual in the big nullsec alliances (Goons aside) but there are plenty of smaller entities (such as Ushra'Khan who fly with us) that have less stringent requirements. Flying a T2 fit battleship is a big skill requirement but what I was trying to show is that you couldn't be more wrong. If you can fly an interceptor, bomber, or covert ops you can help in some absolutely vital roles. If not even a T1 frigate, destroyer, cruiser, or battlecruiser will provide a strong anti-support platform. The T2 thing is more a case of making you bring something you can fit and fly fully. A fully T2 Hurricane is far more use to the fleet than a T1 Tempest.
I don't actually dare take my Muninn out for fleet fights. Its a bit too expensive for me to lose without it being covered by a ship replacement programe so I stick to cheaper interceptors. I meant to make the point in my main post, too, but Ushra'Khan are excellent support pilots. All that skirmish and guerilla fighting they do serves them well.
January 20th, 2010 at 6:35 pm
I really surprise myself in the same way. Small roaming gangs and a bit of solo are fun but right now my heart really isn't in it. I think they just don't match the adrenaline of the huge fleet fights and that "we're all going to die" feeling that you get as you warp in to the enemy fleet.
January 21st, 2010 at 5:00 am
They did. The idea was that sending only one message instead of eight per cycle/toggling would reduce traffic and thus reduce lag. Unfortunately, it also means that the client doesn't sync it's state as often with the server. If you're in an Amarr ship fighting something that lasts more than a few seconds it's all fine and dandy, but most of the time fleet combat involves focus fire and targets tend to be dead before the next weapon cycle begins. And you can't start firing on the next target if your client still thinks that your guns are still shooting at the previous guy or reloading.
To fight that kind of lag, fleet commanders sometimes instruct their troops to cycle their guns after each shot. Even if only some of those messages gets through, it means that at least a portion of the fleet is actually firing and doing damage to the opponent instead of just waiting for their clients to catch up. It's the classic tragedy of the commons dilemma. Because it's so beneficial to take more than your "fair share" of server bandwidth, it makes sense for every individual to do it, making the lag problem even worse.
January 21st, 2010 at 8:59 am
I know what your talking about, the adrenaline of jumping into a huge enemy camp or fleet is awesome. Also to know what your doing there right now can shape the history off eve and how your game will develop for you. Lets hope that this new patch will help somewhat with the lag so that we can go on with all the wars in 0.0 right now
January 21st, 2010 at 9:46 am
Excellent summary Sir Wensley!
My biggest regret now that I've left 0.0 behind me was not being involved in the more intense support roles during fleet battles. Next time round I'll fly fewer Tempests and fly more logi's and tackle.
Fleet cohesion, composition and discipline are undoubtedly what win fights. Bad focused fire on CVA's part seriously hurt them, then again considering the pitch fork op nature of Providence inhabitants I'm not all that surprised.
Amarr Victor?
January 21st, 2010 at 10:31 am
That is one of the best blog posts on eve I have ever read… great stuff. Keep it coming.
January 21st, 2010 at 6:12 pm
Yeah, there are a couple issues with insurance that need to be addressed…..
Damn you, you keep dashing my dreams, man ^_^ but I see what you are saying about HAC in fleet not bein all that practical wallet-wise.
Like I said I have other things to do in the mean time, it's not like I am ready to go to null just yet. But I will be flying all BCs in a couple of days, so the time may be sooner than I think.
At any rate, keep the great reports coming.
January 21st, 2010 at 7:43 pm
Very much enjoyed this. Makes me want to shake off the carebear and head out to 0.0. Still working on the T2 BS skills, but am close.
January 21st, 2010 at 11:40 pm
Damn Wens, you make this 0.0 thing sound so fun. I think your right about large scale fleet warefare being more than just pressing the F buttons. But from what I remember the competence of your FC has a much greater bearing than in small scale pvp. You know as well as any that a single rifter pilot can change the course of a small lowsec belt engagement.
Don't you miss the individual glory yet? Or perhaps you've already established yourself as the frigate king of 0.0 as well.
January 22nd, 2010 at 12:05 am
The individual glory is cool and everything but I do my best to get myself recognised in fleet the good way and have been known to fly around yelling at the other support pilots when I'm not happy with everything. If it all works out here I'd really like to step up and try my hand at being support FC from time to time. I want to make sure I know all the roles from flying them before I do though.
Competence of the FC is important but he has to have a disciplined fleet with all the right tools to be able to do it.
January 22nd, 2010 at 6:40 pm
Wensley, I too want to step up and FC but am consistently forgetting the damned gallente ships ( I only have 1 character that fly gallenete BS, and I don't fly her much) Thats one of the main reasons I started trainign other ships so I can learn more about em to be able to properly call targets.
January 22nd, 2010 at 10:02 pm
That's cool, man. There is nothing like knowing what your enemy can do. Back in the day when I was just a humble Rifter pilot I spent ages studying all the ships I might come across and learning their strengths and weaknesses. Obviously that was just a select number of ships, for a nullsec FC the list is almost endless.
January 28th, 2010 at 1:50 am
Go us
February 2nd, 2010 at 11:46 pm
Are you exposing the fact that I’ve not yet flown fleet BS or FSI? Thanks for filling in the bits that I don’t know about yet.
February 3rd, 2010 at 12:46 pm
Heeheh, you’ll get there… looking forward to having you visit us in the FSI team for sure.