Dominion is nearly upon us and one of the changes that didn’t make it into this expansion was the proposed change to assault frigates. CCP proposed a 15% per level boost to afterburner speed per level of the racial frigate resulting in a 75% speed increase across the board. This was eventually canned because they weren’t happy about it in testing.
A lot of people were very excited about the changes and with good reason. This boost would have made assault frigates into fantastically fast damage dealers without the ability to disable their speed with warp scramblers. As you can probably tell by my tone here, I was less excited by the changes. assault frigates are already tough little damage dealers and, while they need looking at, a massive speed boost would make them far too overpowered. They’re there to bring on the pain, not to tackle. I like the fact that there is a now a decision to be made between afterburner and microwarp drive and I don’t like the idea of forcing the ship to fit one rather than the other.
Another argument that I have against this is the boost to faction and pirate frigates. These are designed to be fast little ships with damage somewhere between T1 frigates and assault frigates and tackling abilities somewhere between T1 frigates and interceptors.
So do I think that assault frigates are fine as they are? Well, no. If nothing else they do need to get their fourth bonus. Plus I know plenty of Retribution pilots who would kill for a second midslot and, while I can see why they don’t have one, I understand why. Add to that the fact that rockets are simply terrible and you have a ship class that needs some investigation. The solution, I think, is too look at every single ship and give it a suitable bonus rather than make a sweeping generalisation across the whole class.
Let’s take a look at the Jaguar and Wolf because they are the ones that I am most familiar with.
Name: Jaguar
Hull: Rifter Class
Role: Assault ShipThe Jaguar is a versatile ship capable of reaching speeds unmatched by any other assault-class vessel. While comparatively weak on the defensive front it sports great flexibility, allowing pilots considerable latitude in configuring their loadouts for whatever circumstances they find themselves in.
Developer: Thukker Mix
Being the brain-child of the nomadic Thukkers, it is no surprise the Jaguar is as fast as it is. Initially conceived as a way for the tribe to pack some added punch to their organized detachments, they’ve found it to be equally useful as messenger, scout and escort, and it is likely to become one of the most commonly-seen ships in the Thukkers’ stomping grounds.
Minmatar Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% Small Projectile damage bonus
Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% Small Projectile Turret optimal range and 5% projectile damage per level.
So taking a look at the Jaguar first we can see that it is designed to be an extension of the Rifter’s flexibility. With 4 high slots, 4 mid slots, and 3 low slots and Minmatar T2 shield resistances it makes an excellent shield tanker. You can fit anything from a single shield extender with a full complement of tackle/e-war, through dual shield extender buffer fits, to active tanks. It screams out to be fitted with autocannons and flown in almost exactly the same way as the Rifter. So why does it have a bonus to small projectile turret optimal range? On a ship like this a bonus to fall-of would be far more appropriate.
The important question is what fourth bonus would I give it? It is not designed to be a hard hitter so I think another damage bonus would be out of place. Following the Rifter model I can see three bonuses which would fit:
- 7.5% bonus to tracking per level: This is lifted straight out of the Rifter’s bonuses and would follow the theme of making the Jaguar into the next logical step from the Rifter. It would allow fits that don’t have stasis webifiers to still lay down good damage and also go some way to counteracting the Amarrian electronic warfare that is likely to be applied to it.
- 5% bonus to base speed per level: While I said I was opposed to an across the board increase to speed I think the Jaguar is a ship where such a bonus might possibly be merited. I know that it is already the fastest assault frigate but as a ship designed for the hit and run attacks by the Thukker Tribe the ability to engage and disengage at will is vital to its function. The main argument against this is that assault frigate speeds are already balance and this would probably unbalance things in favour of the Jaguar.
- 5% reduction in signature radius: This is another potential bonus based upon the ships Thukker roots. It has far less potential to be overpowered than a speed increase but again the Jaguar already has a significantly smaller signature radius than other assault frigates.
I think that while writing that I talked myself out of a bonus to speed or signature radius. In my mind that leaves a tracking bonus as the only viable option for a boost to the Jaguar.
Name: Wolf
Hull: Rifter Class
Role: Assault ShipNamed after a mythical beast renowned for its voraciousness, the Wolf is one of the most potentially destructive frigates currently in existence. While hardier than its brother the Jaguar it has less in the way of shield systems, and the capabilities of its onboard computer leave something to be desired. Nevertheless, the mere sight of a locked and loaded Wolf should be enough to make most pilots turn tail and flee.
Developer: Boundless Creation
Boundless Creation’s ships are based on the Brutor tribe’s philosophy of warfare: simply fit as much firepower onto your ship as possible. Defense systems and electronics arrays therefore take a back seat to sheer annihilative potential.
Minmatar Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% Small Projectile Damage bonus
Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 5% Small Projectile Turret damage and 10% falloff per level
Unlike the Jaguar the Wolf is designed to focus on one particular aspect of the Rifter’s abilities: its damage. With the Brutor’s philosophy this ship is all about firepower. Its five high slots, two mid slots, and four low slots show that this ship is not designed for skirmishing but instead to deliver as much pain as possible. Its double damage bonuses mean that it can function equally well as either an artillery or autocannon platform. Because of this I would propose that it swaps its falloff bonus for the Jaguar’s optimal range bonus.
For the Wolf the fourth and final bonus needs to be something related to damage. I can see two possibilities:
- 7.5% bonus to tracking per level: Like in the case of the Jagaur I think this bonus could be applied to the Wolf without causing too much controversy. That fact that it cannot fit a propulsion module, web, and warp disruptor together means that it is likely to have tracking issues so would feel the benefits of this more than the Jaguar. This bonus would also benefit artillery configurations.
- 5% rate of fire bonus: Sticking with the theme of increased damage this would be a boost to both artillery and autocannon setups.
So of all of my proposals above, which would I go for? Well, without hesitation I would give the Jaguar a bonus to fall-off and tracking while losing the bonus to optimal range. For the Wolf I think a tracking bonus is in order as well. I think that to encourage a bit of variety with artillery setups the optimal bonus would be more suitable than the falloff one that it currently has but then as someone who fliers autocannon Wolves I would be happy if they kept the falloff bonus as is.
So that’s my thoughts on the Jaguar and Wolf. What assault frigates would you change and why?
Related posts:
- Assault Frigates: Some Theorycrafting
- The Price Of Death
- Autocannons and Ammunition
- Slash and Burn
- Three Strikes…
November 27th, 2009 at 12:20 pm
Personally, I think AFs as a whole (some individual ships could be looked at) are perfectly effective as they are now. The problem, imho, is that they're not cost effective. Rather than a 4th bonus I'd like to see costs reduced across the board, to somewhere in the 4-8mil range.
November 27th, 2009 at 12:47 pm
While I think you're right that AFs are already pretty excellent at what they do you are are shockingly wrong that they should be cruiser priced. As much as I would love that I think its important that T2 comes at a considerable premium to T1. You'd have to drop prices across the board and that would bring HACs and recons to battlecruiser prices and mess up the whole thing. T1 ships need to have a place and T2 that cheap would ruin that. Assault frigate prices have crept up, though, but that's largely due to supply and demand.
November 27th, 2009 at 1:04 pm
T1 BS ~100mil, T2 BS ~1b – 10x
T1 BC ~30mil, T2 BC ~220mil – 7-8x
T1 Cruiser ~6mil, T2 Cruiser ~120mil – 20x
T1 Frig ~300k, T2 frig 20-30mil – 70-100x
T2 frig prices aren't even close to consistent with other t2 ships relative to their t1 counter parts.
November 27th, 2009 at 1:59 pm
Very approximately AF ~ Cruiser (25mil – 5mil), HAC ~ BC (120mil – 25mil), CS ~ BS (200mil – 50mil) so the prices are roughly in line.
November 27th, 2009 at 2:45 pm
They're roughly in line by being marginally proportionate to the t1 version of a larger ship class? What?
November 27th, 2009 at 4:32 pm
Yes because their performance is comparable to the larger classes. I honestly think T2 frigates are value for money. If you want ludicrously expensive look at the pirate frigates!
November 27th, 2009 at 4:54 pm
My alliance has AF on a black list. We do not fly them as official doctrine says they cannot do nothing really better as cruisers.
November 27th, 2009 at 5:00 pm
I'm a big fan of the Wolf/Jaguar but atm they are nothing more than a glorified Rifter (and I love my rifter). At all Lvl5, a rifter with a Gyro, 3×220 and RL (all, Barrage, T2 and non rigged) delivers 123 DPS w/ a volley damage of 249. A Jaguar with the exact same damage setup only delivers 149 DPS and 301 volley damage. The big difference is the EHP and the higher EM resist.
Relative to their cost <225K vs. 26M ISK>, the Minmatar (cause I don't fly the others) AFs should have higher damage potential. I agree with the tracking boost, but I think a speed boost along with a little love given to the RL would bring it in line with the cost. We don't have the extra drone space as the Ishkur (200DPS w/ Warrior IIs) and let's face it, it would eat a Jag for lunch (barring pilot skill differences) nor do we have the unlimited ammo or reload time of a blaster AF.
Not many people have the skills to be all lvl 5 so realistically, damage is way lower. The RL boost would also help the Vengeance AFs.
tl;dr; – Jaguar – I agree w/ Options 1 & 2 and throw in RL love. This should bring it in line with the cost.
Wolf – I think both 1& 2.
I also think costs should remain where they are as they should cost alot given the damage potential.
November 27th, 2009 at 6:51 pm
I wouldn't mind seeing an increase in the wolf's base speed. At a minimum, at least be able to hit over 1000m/s w/ AB with a 400 plate in. AFs are suppose to be an improvement to the base model (rifter) not gimped. Given, it has more gun points but speed is what minmatar ships are suppose to be all about.
I think the AB boost would be better at around the 7.5% velocity per level plus an agility bonus (im not sure how much though, maybe 5 to 7.5% per level) . Makes them faster and more maneuverable but not so fast that its rediculious. An alert and experienced inty pilot should be able to catch an AF but the inty pilot should ask themself once engaged, "will I survive this?'
And of course I'd support any push for a T3 rifter hull
November 27th, 2009 at 7:53 pm
Taranis. Give bonus to armour repair, afterburner speed, tracking, optimal, falloff, base speed, inertia, cargo capacity.
Oops, forgot this was an AF post.
At the top of my head, Enyo. Obvious reason being lack of mid-slots and i think its been given a bad repuation in general in Eve. Definately one of the less common ones. But when i sit down and think about it, the Enyo is imo one of the most deadlist AF's out there given the right fit and right style of flying.
So in a way, i think AF's are pretty much spot on.
Amarr AF's seem to be the bottom of the pile from where i'm standing. I don't fly them however, so will leave these ones to someone more knowledgable.
November 27th, 2009 at 10:46 pm
Rockets need love but that's a whole different matter. I've got to say I've had no problem with the damage output of my assault frigates and you just need to be clever when fighting an Ishkur.
November 27th, 2009 at 10:47 pm
Really? That's a bit short-sighted.
November 27th, 2009 at 10:48 pm
Oh, I like the idea of an agility bonus. I didn't think of that. Very nice.
November 27th, 2009 at 10:49 pm
I agree with you Caster, mate. I think that as they stand the AFs are pretty well balance and any boost needs to be carefully considered. By the way, I'll see your Taranis and raise it one Dramiel or better still Daredevil.
November 27th, 2009 at 11:03 pm
I agree, an agility bonus would be nice as well.
With regards to the damage output, I did throw in the caveat about an experience pilot vs. an ishkur.
My point was more that for the cost of an AF vs. the Rifter, there really should be a more proportionate damage output than there is.
November 27th, 2009 at 11:46 pm
You need to feel sorry for Hawk pilots. They have the same damage as Kestrels.
November 28th, 2009 at 12:28 am
I do indeed feel sorry for them, but since I only fly Minmatar. Not so much.
November 28th, 2009 at 11:19 am
To be honest AF's suck at the moment and they SCREAM for some kind of speed bonus. I see really no reason to fly AF over cruiser at the moment. They cost more and they are far less effective. Not even mentioning that they are slower than MWD cruiser. I haven't lost single Rupture to AF and I killed many of them. AF's were designed to be able to tackle/kill cruisers but they are unable to do that at all. They are absolutely useless except for killing other AF's .
November 28th, 2009 at 1:22 pm
I really don't like the idea of AFs being better than cruisers. Ruppies, Thoraxes, and Vexors should be able to kill them. If they were better then why would anyone fly T1 cruisers? I think the thing to remember is you don't HAVE to fit an afterburner. Also don't forget that tackling doesn't mean soloing. A small gang of AFs can be lethal and its advantage is its signature radius and agility. Rupture is better but far easier to catch and that's how it should be.
November 30th, 2009 at 3:40 pm
I'd like to see the Amarr AF's get some love. Unlike the Wolf/Jag which are two 'flavors' of the Rifter (the Minnie's best T1 frig), the Amarr get two wildly different AF's. Examining the Punisher, this little ship follows the Amarr 'blueprint': decent tank, decent damage and not really excelling at either. If I were in charge of revamping the Amarr AF's, here are the changes I'd make.
Retribution: Max DPS. To make it a bit more viable I would only remove the laser cap use bonus in favor of an afterburner speed boost (5% per level) allowing a good pilot to orbit outside web range and toast everything with Scorch.
Vengeance: Max Tank: Drop the bonus to rockets in favor of repair amount per level. No weapon options means it will always be a weak damage dealer but it can get in close, web/scram and plink away with the pilot's weapon of choice.
Much like the Jag/Wolf, these variants amplify the characteristics of the Amarr's best T1 frig.
December 3rd, 2009 at 1:30 am
Loving this discussion, but I do think that, in most situations, a well-flown T1 cruiser can equal a well-flown AF. The weaponry takes a little more training (e.g. for T2 weapons) but that doesn't really factor in too much, as it's only an extra 2-3 weeks and I'd venture a guess that most AF pilots get T2 medium weapons anyway.
Throw in the insurance situation, and I'd rather have a Stabber than a Jaguar most of the time.